Ok you all, I’ve just returned from Dallas. I used to play in a really good cover band here in S.A., and we made out with at least $800-$1000 a night. This was about 10 years ago. WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?!?!?! I just found out that beginning bands are now making around $250-$300 a night.

Why did the price drop so dramatically. I’m hoping that guys like Billy Perez, Rio, Brent from the Klocks, or Dave from the Pictures, if they are still playing can chime in on this.

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Hmmm I did not Know that ? I figured only bands that drew big crowds and made great bar sales could make this type of money.

yeah why has it changed? if it has ? hell bands were making 250.00 & 300 maybe a tad more about 5 to 6 years ago. I was never apart of the cover band scene up until a year ago, however the bands I know have rarely made more than 250.00 on the low end and 400.00 on the high end. and it has not changed much. I hope this changes -gas is not cheaper and it takes alot of work and time effort, gear, ect ect.

as far as I Sherlocks is the only place that is paying these on the high end.

There are a hand full of bands that I hear that will not play for less than 650 to 1000.00 and they rarely get booked anymore.

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Hmmm... a mighty good question. I haven't been involved in the scene here all that long, but $250 is certainly the average pay scale for most places here as I've seen it. I can venture a guess as to why - that will likely piss off a few people (but others will possibly agree).

I don't want it to sound like I'm dissing Debbie Murphy because I really do like her and in some ways she does a lot of good for bands - ours included. But, as the main person responsible for booking many of the clubs here for a long time, she's in the position of being the biggest scapegoat. I'm not familiar with San Antonio's music scene of the past, but the impression I've gotten is that it wasn't all that great not too long ago. While I've heard talk of some great bands that aren't around anymore (and a few who are still kicking it), I've heard from others who have said that many of the bands being booked were mediocre and the scene just wasn't cutting it. With many club owners (and I'm not saying all of them) relying on Debbie to do the booking, and the combination of a limited talent pool and clubs wanting to pay so little, even at the low rates the clubs weren't really getting their money's worth in a lot of cases. Only a few bands were bringing steady crowds, and they got the money.

We have a changing scene now, but it's a work in progress. There are a lot of great bands in the area, and the crowds are starting to notice. The clubs aren't always packed, but the bands and clubs are starting to build reputations. As the scene grows, the possibility of higher band rates grows. For now, there are bands who still charge higher rates but with all the great new bands out there and their own personnel changes, they aren't bringing in the crowds anymore. Some places have stopped booking them because they get more return on the other bands who play for less.

Where I think Debbie becomes a part of the problem is that, while she's doing a good job for the bands, she's also eager to please the clubs because they're the ones who look to her to fill their spots. If she was only looking out for the bands, none of the clubs would deal with her. So her hands are somewhat tied by how much the clubs are willing to pay, and the bands don't get much say - either they play for that price or someone else will. If a band tells her they want more money, chances are she won't get them booked. A number of "established" bands have tried raising their prices, and deservedly so, only to lose their bookings at the clubs who helped get them established.

There are clubs that could easily afford to pay more, but when everyone else is paying so little they don't really have a reason to pay more. There are a few out there, and those higher-paying gigs are great. But if you want to play regularly you have to compromise. When a club sees that you're always bringing in a bigger crowd than they have on nights you're not there, then you have something to negotiate. And then you have to hope you're not dealing with that attitude that if you won't play for $250, someone else will.

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I agree Brad. I also want to add that the other bands agreeing to play for less don't help the situation either. Same politics happens in our area. A band agrees to play for less because they're desperate to play and leaves the venue happy. Leaving the other bands having to sacrifice some food on the table and take some loss if they want to play.

Luckily, we don't face that dissposition here. There are about 6 venues, all within a 10 mile radius of eachother, competing every weekend night for the same crowds. All of which we play at. And those that don't have live music, are usually left with empty parking lots.

We play at one of the venues that strictly uses Debbie Murphy's roster and no one else. We don't get the same cut that she does, but we're not too far off and so we don't complain because we figure, after she gets her cut, the bands come out making the same.

Also, we're able to compromise other incentives with the club owners. One place, we also get a percentage of the bar and at others, a free bar tab (which can add up quickly, especially if your in a five piece band)!

Another thing is that the bigger bands have to deal with the same issue when they're getting paid the same amout as a three or four piece band.The bigger the band, the less you make. I think that all club owners should consider this and be willing to pay more and not compromise substance for quantity. We like to say, "If you do, then you get what you pay for".

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All of the bands previously mentioned (The Klocks, The Max, etc.) still play...just not in S.A. Only place paying that well locally is Sherlocks and a few others like Rive or Hooligans. Another band along those lines is Out of Phase (formerly Popgun). About the only place you'll see them play locally is Sherlock's. This is mainly, IMO, because all of these guys in these bands....that's pretty much all they do. It's a business to them. Now I know that's not 100% true, but for the most part, it is. So they HAVE to go where the money is. Honestly...check out The Klocks or The Max's web-sites and see where they're booked.

I don't think DM is the problem...as someone stated before, she has her hands tied. She's caught in the middle between the club owner who has the money, and the band that wants to play for the money. It's also a business to her too so in order to keep money coming in for her, she has to keep everyone happy...but particularly the club owner. Can't say I necessarily blame her. She's gotta eat too.

But the underlying problem, in my opinion, is I think the San Antonio market has become more of a Dance club or DJ market. Back 10-15 years ago, I think people would go to clubs specifically to hear live music. Sadly, I don't think that's the case anymore. Maybe that's why most of the live music venues now days want you to play for a percentage of the bar. They want you to bring the people in...can't blame them. In the past, when the pay was better, they didn't seem to care. Just as long as you didn't suck on stage, they'd pay a flat rate...and pay well. This is because back then people would go out to specifically hear live music so they KNEW their club would be packed. Now they have to compete with these Mega-Dance clubs.

Just my $.02 and I've played with some of the people you mentioned Randall.

I agree with most of the above. Also, while some bands charge $300 and up, it makes it difficult to start playing as a new band. As stated in an earlier post, it's tough to ask for $300 or more when a new band will play for less. But if you're the new band, you can't justify asking for more than $250 when you have a small following and little to no name recognition. So what to do? If I'm the new band, and I can only ask for $200-$250 and we ROCK the place, then what happens if the venue that loves us offers us a regular gig for a lttle more money, but less than what you (the vetran band) ask for. Do we take it and cost the vetrans (who are probably friends) a gig or turn it down and lose a regular gig? There lies the problem: to choose between "every band for themselves" or "Help the scene, help others". Any ideas?

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We all boycott the bars as a union. $400 a night.

See, I like that. But then the bars will just hire DJs for less and that will be that. Oh well.

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Randall, what’s up fool!!!! I saw your name on my caller ID but I didn’t think it was you.

I think I can tell you exactly why the price of entertainment has gone down or up if you are a club owner. It’s in three steps that intertwine. Brad almost hit the nail on the head on one of the steps, but from a different direction. I hope I don’t bore you guys but here we go…………

First of all let me say that I’ve been a musician in the cover scene here in town for about 13-14 years. Let me give you an idea about the clubs I played and the money we made. During this period I played with Trinidad Panmasters right after they changed their name, and with BLISS as an earlier incarnation.

We would play Acapulco Sam’s for $1000 on a Wenesday, the Rhino Room for $800 on a Thursday, Sunova Beach for $1000 on a Friday and Jack’s for $900 on a Saturday. Or any combination of the above. Throw in Fat Tuesday, both here and Austin for $800, Billy Marbles for $900, Rock Island for $800, Rick’s in Tyler for $1300 plus rooms, and there were to clubs in Corpus, one called Tom Foolery;s and another that the name escapes me, but they had two bands, one indoors and one outdoors, all for $1000 plus rooms and food. What a life!!!

Here’s what happen:

1.) Acapulco Sam’s, the Rhino Room and Sunova Beach all shut for basically the same reason, their owners were into real estate and sold their business for the money. The owner from Acapulco Sam’s stills owns the building and rents to Polly Esthers, and he opened up Sam’s Burger Joint. He was paying bands Tuesday-Saturday $1000 a night, because his three story club was packed every night.

About a month after these places closed we are booked at Jack’s and they offer us $500. WTF????? See when the big clubs left all the other clubs could now drop their prices. WHY? Well a lot of bands didn’t take the pay cuts, they just left town. These were full time bands that could do so, like Passing Strangers, The Klocks, Firefox, The Howlering, Out of Phase, etc, these were bands that demanded high money and they got it because the clubs were full. Well someone had to take their place and new bands came around that didn’t know the pricing in town and they were happy to receive $500 a night. (ALSO REMEMBER THAT EVERY CLUB CHARGED A COVER BACK THEN AND THIS HELPED OFFSET THE PRICE OF THE BANDS)

2.) September 11, 2001. Need I say more what this event did to our economy? People started staying home, the clubs lost money, so they dropped their cover charge so entice customers in and now the consumer is used to this practice. But I feel Brad’s comment about things coming around is true that in people are starting to come back.

3.) And finally, the emergence of the part time musician. Back in the day bands like ours were primarily full time. Even if some of us had jobs, we could take the time off to travel to Austin, to Dallas, and back home for weekend gigs. We would show up at the gig at noon, set up, sound and lights, sound check, then go home get drunk and show up at 9:15 to start playing at 9:30. That’s a full day’s work. Now days, most bands have musicians that do this just to get out of the house, to drink with their buddies, or just for the musical integrity of playing, meaning they just want to play just to play music. That’s has killed us others who used to depend on this business for an income for their home and families. I think if you just want to play then take over Bongo Joe’s old spot. Or how about this, I can book a band for free every Friday and Saturday of the month for charity events. I know guys that just want to play for beer money.

So bands are asking for less money, because they are just doing it for fun, they don’t hire a soundman (MY HUGE PET PEEVE) , and they have another income. Well God Bless them, honestly, I can’t take anything away from them, I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t want to increase their already steady income. WE have already driven our market price down. It is going to take a long time to bring it back up.

The reason why I only have my bands (BLISS, THE SEA MONKEYS) play only 6-8 times a month is because I will not compromise the price of our band. I have our set price and I would rather party or be with my family than have to take a gig that I thought was not finacially rewarded. Hell, some of my favorite gigs have been jamming in my garage with friends. The beer is cheap, the food is good, you can smoke and stay all night, but at the clubs I think all of us talent bands in San Antonio should be rewarded some what.

Please remember that I’m NOT ragging on part time musicians. I would never do that. I had a couple of the best musicians in town stand in my wedding and they were part time. I just wish this market had more full time bands.

Well I’ve talked (written) enough, I must find alcohol. Hope this made sense. Please let me hear your comments.

Rikk

Rikk, I think all your reasons for what has brought the payout down are all right on, but I think that more bands would be full time if they were getting paid what you used to. It sounds like it was pretty lucrative. But speaking only for myself, I can't do that, accepting that I'd only get around $100 maybe $150 for myself after everyone takes their share. With bills, child support, etc., there's just no way I could do that, not forgetting that my hours would be basically from 3pm until 3am or later, so that would effectively cut my time with my daughter to almost none. But $800 to $1000 on a regular basis sounds sweet. Very sweet indeed.

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Well, I'm a relative newbie to the local music scene, but I have heard stories from the E7 guys similar to what Rikk already mentioned. By the way, the rest of Rikk's breakdown made a lot of senese as well.

All that aside, I figure that the clubs today only pay X amount of dollars because they can. I guess I'm one of those part-timers that will take a lower paying gig, just to have a gig, or to "get our foot in the door" which has sometimes worked, and sometimes not. Even as a part-timer though, I join all of you in the frustration of feeling like all the hard work isn't being rewarded appropriately. I've actually thought before about Brett's answer..UNION! However unlikely that idea seems, I think it's the only thing that would keep a band's price above a certain mark without the worry of another band underbidding you.

So, I guess I won't be quitting my day job anytime soon

Hang in there kids!

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Wow ! is all I have to say.

I learned allot from this thread, thanks guys!

I'm finding this to be a rather informative thread. I had no idea bands used to make that much here. Rikk's comments make a lot of sense, and I think it proves that SA's music scene can and will grow, and it's largely up to us to make it happen.

We all may have different reasons for being performing musicians, whether it be part-time, for-the-fun-of-it, or with aspirations to be full-time with consistent income. Whatever our reasons, I don't think any of us would turn down a bit more money at a gig. I can't imagine anyone here saying, "I know you want to pay us $500, but really, we only want $250."

The thought of a union approach occurred to me too, but it's unfortunately unrealistic. Any of us reading the forums here knows that there are plenty of cutthroat types who would willingly undercut bands trying to form any sort of united front. The attitude that clubs don't have to pay more because someone else will play for less is very true. Hopefully the scene grows and the current better bands really start to have an impact on whether the business does well or not, so that it isn't just about having entertainment but having reliably good entertainment that brings in crowds.

There are some club owners in the area who are willing to pay for the results they get. They're exactly what the town needs to bring about the change. As it works for them, others will follow suit. When one club that has a reputaion for paying more for good bands is busy while the surrounding clubs are dead, they'll start to realize that the scene is rebounding. They can't help but respond accordingly, or they'll risk losing more business themselves.

I won't mention names here because it involves a popular local band and a great club a lot of us like to play, and it's second-hand info. I was told that this band asked for more money because their shows always went well there. The club refused to pay more because they simply didn't have to. A lot of bands do well there and are willing to play for the same price. The band in question didn't quite pack the place at their last gig there, and was told, "This is why we don't f*cking pay you more". One not-so-great night and their future there was sealed, as well as the futures of other bands that played there.

I'm one of the musicians that really does do it for the fun. The money isn't that important, even though I could surely use the bucks. But I PLAY for the fun of it. Being a performing musician is much more than just jumping onstage, playing some music, then leaving. Most of you can relate to this list of things I have to do to be a performing musician:

Design and pay for production of promotional materials.

Design, maintain and pay the costs of the website.

Buy strings, picks, and equipment as necessary on a weekly basis - much of which I wouldn't even have a use for if I wasn't performing.

Spending time and gas money doing PR.

Loading up all of aforementioned equipment into a car that's really too small for it, driving it to the gig, unloading, setting it all up and making sure it works, then repeating the process in reverse at the end of the night after exhausting myself onstage for four hours.

Even if the performing part is fun, the money we make is supposed to cover more than just those four hours. Loading equipment is not fun - especially at the end of the night. All of the work we do OFFSTAGE adds up to a lot of time and money invested. This is what gives the differing sides of fun vs. pay some common ground. All of that sh*t is work, and people like to get paid for work. After a while of doing it, you realize that fun doesn't pay the bills, even if you're only talking about the money you have to pay out to do this in the first place.

This is why I always stress that the local bands need to work together to build this scene, and not work against each other. If I was to badmouth Spitfire (which I would never do - believe me) to make my own band look better, I'm not doing myself any favors. If Spitfire becomes successful in raising their own prices because of the crowds they attract, my band can only benefit from their success. That same club that paid them $200 more for the night might also start paying my band more. By discouraging their success, the club has no reason to pay them more. And if they're not paying other bands more, why should they up it for us?

Showing support for other bands is showing support for the scene and your place in it. I hope all of the great musicians in this forum are making twice as much per night by the end of the year. Not only do y'all deserve it, but that means I'll be making more too!

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I totally agree with Braad's comments on: :"Loading up all of aforementioned equipment into a car that's really too small for it, driving it to the gig, unloading, setting it all up and making sure it works, then repeating the process in reverse at the end of the night after exhausting myself onstage for four hours."

I often tell people that I play for free, but I better get paid for loading and unloading!!

Thanks for starting this thread Randall. I think it's a great topic of discussion.

I'm with you Rikk. I play for free. I just want to get paid a decent price for all of the additional work it takes. I've played in various bands for 15 years...10 of those back in San Antonio. And when you and I played together, I think the 2 of us had the most crap in the band.

I don't think a union is the answer. All a union will do is push club owners to go a different route (i.e. a DJ) and there will be more bands out of work. Also, I think it's important to point out...as a club owner once posted on another thread....these Clubs don't HAVE to hire us.

I truly think the lower pay is attributable to a down live music market in San Antonio. And I specifically think it's isolated to San Antonio. To me, it's similar from an economic perspective to Real Estate. Real Estate is a locally driven economy. That's why a house in San Antonio costs different than the same house in Austin, Dallas, or Houston. There are still clubs paying high dollar but they are primarily out of town. The San Antonio entertainment market has driven away from a live music scene. Probably a combination of several things that have been mentioned here on this thread. For now, I think we all have to come to terms with the fact that we're in a down cycle. But I pray someday the "good ol' days" come back.

Now with that said, when I book my band, I operate under the philosophy that you get what you pay for. A higher paying gig will get a larger sound system (if necessary) and a sound man. A lower paying gig will likely cause me to run sound from stage. I hate doing that but it all goes back to that whole "economy" thing. We'll still put on a high quality show...but a sound man turns my 5 piece into a 6 piece.

Hey Keith, buddy, old friend, don't ever worry about needing a soundman to become your 6th man, you know that I would do it for free any day.....but if you want me to load and unload that'll cost you $350!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. moneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoney.




Seriously I'm sure i owe you a favor somewhere down the road just let me know if you need some help. I work for beer!!! Come check out our new subs, either tonight at Q's or Friday at Hooligans.

peace.

Rikk,

I saw on the Q-bar website that Drive is playing tonight. Mistake? Just checking.

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Rikk - did you guys get MORE subs? Last 2 times I saw you guys you were running the Yamaha 18's. That reminds me, I need to get a promo pack over to Q.

Work for beer but it'll cost me $350 huh?....that's a lot of freakin' beer.

yeah, Christian...their site says they're playing there too. Confused me too, but I decided to take Bliss's word for it...

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Oooooo! Band Rumble!!! Whoever is left standing takes the stage! Too bad. I have friends in both bands. Oh well, whoever wins.

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Well it looks like I just got "Broke Back Mountained". Apparently they have a new booking againt and he is not honoring the last booking agents gigs. I was actually getting dressed to go set up. So what does this tell you Rowan, I get better information from this forum, than i do from club managers. Keep up the good work guys, and thank you Christian. Well, I'm off to the liquer store. Anybody wnat anything!

p.s., and trust me, we'd win the rumble!

Well, that sucks for you guys...at least you found out before you hauled everything up there, I guess. I changed it to Drive...

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Here's what I'm doing...I'm going to start undressing on stage. As the club starts to empty, I'll demand more money from the club owner. If they don't pay, they see the polar bear.

Main St. Saturday. Be there. History. It all ends then. That's all I can say.

Thanks for the warning dude. It'll be empty before you step foot in it now! Don't distract, this is a great thread.

Bro's, I was a rock and roll junkie and I used to see all the bands back in the day. I was single and my mullet was killer!!! My opinion is two things: band overload/mediocrity. Today, the low end bands would play in Bongo Joe's old spot if it would put their name in the weekender and get them a 6 pack of beer. The bands used to kill back in the day now, you go for a few songs and walk out and bars take notice. And those bands don't care, they just recycle band members and change the name. They're rock stars in their mind. But these bands ruin it for better bands that deserve better pay and don't have to cut those corners (i.e. - not using a sound guy) just to make a buck. My second observance is rock and roll just ain't what it used to be. Kid's are more into the hip-hop sound where it's all loops and catchy sound effects with ultra hot people singing them. There's no soul! People would rather hang out with their martini's and cigars in yuppie-hell than check out hard rocking cats. The scene is just not happening. And I agree with Rikk's point that the economy has a lot to do with it.

Perhaps when things turn around, rock and roll will spread it's wings once again and we can all go to Billy Marbles, write on the wall, drink cheap draft beer, and enjoy some killer musicianship!
Peace.
M

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Amen Mario.

Hey Rikk - Man that sucks dude. Did you call over there or what? How did you find out? If they didn't let you know and you had to call over there to find out, that sounds pretty unprofessional to me. And I say this assuming you didn't make the mistake on your end. But I've never known you to mess up the schedule once...no matter HOW drunk you got.

Are they still going to book you guys? I'd be surprised if they didn't. Last time I saw you there you guys had a great show and the crowd was really into it.

I was curious what was going on over there. When I checked their calendar, it seemed like Dragonfly was playing there 9 times in March.

Not to get too far off topic, but for those of you who don't regularly check club's websites and MySpace accounts, I highly recommend doing so. That's how I found out I was bumped a couple weeks ago. The manager didn't call me, I had to call them, so I no longer take it for granted that something I booked a over a month ago is still on the books. I guess this is why booking agents exist.

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And it happens again!

I just got this e-mail from Johnny Drama:

We've been dissed like a red headed stepchild by Wise Guys Bar. I got a phone call at 1:00PM today from Sal (co-owner) to let me know that we we're going to play there tonight after all. Instead, they will have Failsafe out there tonight. It seems that someone is having her birthday party out there and she wanted to have them play there instead. So we're left standing there with our %*&%$ in our hands not being able to schedule anything else. This was just a bad way of handling this, no matter how you look at it.

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As a part time musician...it still pisses you off when you get bumped!

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I'm sure...a little more notice would be nice too!

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whats up with these clubs lately!

Boy! do we need to get start getting shit in writting or what?

Keep Rockin Johhny D & Sea Monkeys ! only because those of us that have full time jobs & then some cant play during the week seem to fall victim to this type of getting bumped game.

by the way I Teach guitar Play in two bands and have a full time job 50 plus hours, no offense to full time musicains, just seems the bands that play all week long get more love from the clubs Lately.

thats my 2 cents have a great weekend!

I have to agree with pretty much everything written on this thread...just don't get me started on the "PART-TIME" musician crap. We part-time musicians put in just as much behind the scenes time as everyone else...that is if you're professional about it. Yet I digress...

It seems that the mentality that the bars and bar owners have of bands is not one of mutual respect. If I ran my company, and treated my suppliers, the way somE of these bars treat us bands, I'd be out of business. They don't see it as a partnership between the band and the bar. that's exactly what it is people!

Speaking from my own experience, I know these bars have their regular clientele. They also want us to bring in our people as well. We, JJ (Bass Player) and myself, work extremely hard on promoting ourselves, our shows and getting people out there. These bar owners seem to forget that with out the right entertainment, the patrons do not stick around!!! So why treat us as though we don't matter?

Now it seems that the bars don't even want to lift one finger, for the most part, to promote the bands they will be having in house. They want the band to do all the leg work and then not treat us with some thread of dignity as??? I think not!!!

We are all very important cogs in this machine that is the SA bar/live music scene. If the bar owners forget that, they too are responsible for the downfall of the scene.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T!! That's all I ask for...

Thanks for letting me vent.

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Just to be fair, there are some bars that work to promote their bands. Limelight, Papa Ray's and Jack's always send me their schedules. Kristal usually does, too. And The White Rabbit, The Sanctuary, BoozeHounds and The Mix usually put ads in The Edge, I think.

But some bars, I try calling up there to find out what band is playing when I'm finding 2 different listings, and the person answering the phone doesn't know who's playing there and won't even bother to find out for me. And I don't tell them it's for a web site, so as far as they know, I'm a potential customer who might come in if they're having a good band, so that's pretty bad for business, I think!

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Another victim to WISE GUYS' double bookings...ALTER EGO!!!

Steve just informed my earlier tonight that they were cancelled for their show on Thursday night. They we given the double booked excuse as well.

WHAT THE HELL?!?!?!?!?!?!

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Uh…., Cesar, I think you totally misconstrued was I was facilitating. There is NOTHING wrong with part time musicians. Because the price of a performance have dropped so significantly over that past 5-10 years I am now a part time musician. And in view of the fact that I’m a part time musician there is nothing “crappy” about it. My only axiom was that WE are one of the reasons that the price has plummeted.

And about the double booking, I hope that Debbie Murphy gets more love from this forum. She books about 40% of my gigs and in the past 10 years she has NEVER double booked me. Most clubs that don’t use a booking agent usually have 2 or 3 people doing the booking and that’s where imprecision’s occur. And the gigs I do book myself I check back weekly to see if we are still booked. This is why the Q’s gig caught me by surprice. I had just called them.

Not a problem Rik. We too use Debbie for some of our stuff, but as you know, a lot of the newer places are not going through her. That leaves us with doing the leg work ourselves.

I still can't explain how that happened to us at WISE GUYS because I was really tight with Sal over there. I would stop in atleast once a week and have a few with him. We've played there several times over the past couple of months.

Q-bar, that's a tough one. I've called Ray and left a voicemail for him once a week for the past 6-7 weeks and have not received a single call back. I really consider that to be a bad business practice. I might be shooting myself in the foot saying this but it's the truth.

I have my own structural design company and there is no way that I would do that sort of thing to my customers or VENDORS. There is no harm in calling someone and telling them, "I can't do anything right now." It's just common courtesy.

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