In another thread concerning the new upcoming progressive pop 3cd clamshell box set, Greg mentioned about 1969/70 being a time where I feel a genuine genre of albums mainly of the psych/prog crossover sound were released, not pop or folk as such really but the psych sound morphing into something more album orientated with what can be longer songs with mainly keyboard and guitar textures. To my ears here are some psych/prog crossover albums not just from 69/70,but many are ;
CZAR
ARDVARK
WATERLOO -FIRST BATTLE
IRISH COFFEE
MAD CURRY
SALAMANDER -TEN COMMANDMENTS
ANDROMEDA
GRAIL (supposedly produced by rod Stewart)
PETER BARDENS-THE ANSWER
GALLIARD-STRANGE PLEASURE
HEAD MACHINE-ORGASM
VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR -THE AEROSOL GREY MACHINE
VELVETT FOGG
YES-YES(debut album)
BRINCOS-MUNDO,DEMONIO,CARNE
APHRODITES CHILD -666
HAIR -PIECE
T2-IT'LL ALL WORK OUT IN BOOMLAND
UFO-UFO 1
WRITING ON THE WALL-POWER OF THE PICTS
ARCADIUM-BREATHE AWHILE
BABS JONS,MALONE-MOTHERLIGHT
ARZACHEL-ARZACHEL
DEAR MR TIME-GRANDFATHER
CANTERBURY GLASS -SACRED SCENES AND CHARACTERS
COLONEL BAGSHOT-OH WHAT A LOVELY WAR
MAN-REVELATION
MAN-2 OZS OF PLASTIC
WARM DUST-AND IT CAME TO PASS
CHRIS FARLOWE AND THE HILL-
GONG-CAMEMBERT ELECTRIQUE
SUPERSISTER-PRESENT FROM NANCY
SAMUEL PRODY
JESS AND JAMES(1969)
JULIANS TREATMENT-A TIME BEFORE THIS
MARSUPILAMI
MANFRED MANN CHAPTER 3-VOLUME 1
MADE IN SWEDEN-MADE IN ENGLAND

Mainly UK and some European bands and albums in this list, that's just a small number that I've picked which to my ears could be described as psych/prog crossover type albums. Be interested in what other albums folks can come up with. Cheers folks.

Now that's an interesting one Stuart, but not having time to check things out more thoroughly or look at the actual release dates I'd add...

Blackfeather-Mountains Of Madness
Eyes Of Blue-both albums
East Of Eden-Mercator Projected
Five Day Rain-s/t
Cosmic Dealer-Crystalisation
Five Day Week Straw People-s/t
Mighty Baby-s/t
Krokodil-An Invisible World Revealed

Get down onnit!

8 Days in April
Brainticket
Brosselmachin
Gomorrha
Rufas Zuphall
Paladin
Analogy
Asoka
Audience
2066 & Then - Reflections!
A-Austr Musics from Holy Ground
Abacus - s/t
Ache - De Homine Urbano
Ache - Green Man
Affinity - s/t
Aquila - s/t
Arc - At this
Arcadium - Breathe Awhile
Arzachel - s/t
Battered Ornaments - A Meal You Can Shake Hands With In The Dark
Battered Ornaments - Mantlepiece
Atomic Rooster - Death Walks Behind You
Beggars Opera - Act One
Beggars Opera - Pathfinder
Beggars Opera - Waters of Change
Black Widow - Sacrifice
Bodkin - s/t
Bram Stoker - Heavy Rock Spectacular
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe - M144
Burnin' Red Ivanhoe - WWW
Catapilla - Changes
Catapilla - s/t
Cirkus - One
Colosseum - Daughter of Time
Colosseum - Valentyne Suite
Comus - First Utteranace
Cressida - Asylum
Cressida - s/t
Culpepers Orchard - s/t
Czar - s/t
Dear Mr. Time -Grandfather
Diabolus - s/t
Earth & Fire-same
East of Eden - Mercator Projected
East of Eden - s/t
Egg - The Polite Force
Egg - s/t
Fairfield Parlour - From Home to Home
Family - Family Entertainment
Fantasy - Beyond the Beyond
Fantasy - Paint a Picture
Fields - s/t
Frumpy - Frumpy
Fuchsia - s/t
Fusion Orchestra - Skeleton in Armour
Fuzzy Duck - s/t
Galliard - New Dawn
Galliard - Strange Pleasure
Gnidrolog - In Spite of Harry's Toenail
Gnidrolog - Lady Lake
Gracious - This is... Gracious!!
Gracious - s/t
Gravy Train - Ballad of a Peaceful Man
Gravy Train - Second Birth
Greenslade - s/t
Greenwood, Nicholas - Cold Cuts
High Tide - Sea Shanties
High Tide - s/t
Indian Summer - s/t
Jan Dukes de Grey - Mice & Rats in the Loft
Jody Grind - Far Canal
Jonesy - Growing
Julian Jay Savarin - Waiters on the Dance
Julian's Treatment - A Time Before This
Kestrel - s/t
Khan - Space Shanty
Kingdom Come - Galactic Zoo Dossier
Kingdom Come - Journey
Locomotive - We Are Everything You See
Love Sculpture - Forms & Feelings
Marsupilami - Arena
Marsupilami - s/t
Mellow Candle - Swaddling Songs
Missing Link - Nevergreen!
Odin - s/t
Orange Peel - s/t
Out of Focus - Wake Up
Out of Focus - s/t
Pete Brown & Piblokto - Thousands on a Raft
Pete Brown & Piblokto - Things May Come and Things May Go but the Art School Dance Goes on Forever
Parlour Band - Is a Friend?
Procol Harum - Shine on Brightly
Quatermass - s/t
Quicksand - Home is Where I belong
Rare Bird - As Your Mind Flies By
Rare Bird - s/t
Raw Material - Time is...
Room - Pre-Flight
Samurai - s/t
Sandrose - s/t
Second Hand - Death May Be Your Santa Claus
Skin Alley - s/t
Spring - s/t
Still Life - s/t
Subject Esq - s/t
T2 - It'll All Work Out in Boomland
The Greatest Show on Earth - Horizons
Titus Groan - s/t
Tonton Macoute - s/t
Touch - s/t
Tractor - s/t
Warm Dust - And It Came To Pass
Web - I Spider
Wind



Proto Pwogs are GO!


Great Cheeko, God of Proto say "Happy are the children of Pwog.


Proto will heal thee.


Get down on yer knees beefwhore Cheeko, God of Mighty Proto!

Pesky Gee

Tangle Edge[does this fit in ?very nice band from Norway]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzR_cf_e4aU

No!

Wot you got against Catapilla? Too jazzy for proto? Same for Galliard?

I can see how Quicksand might be difficult to swallow - especially if you dont see proto including bands in the folky/gentler, lazier-vibe side of things.

Quicksand is rural prog as are: Dog that bit People, Shape of the Rain,Gypsy,Northwind-sister,brother,love, Help Yourself and ,possibly some of Man (Quicksand was an offshoot of Man .And connects to Eyes Of Blue and Wild Turkey.)

Proto was largely a UK thing.
But I'm glad to see the inclusion, in the orig post, of Euro bands like say Mad Curry.

A few others:
Circus 2000
Sugarloaf
Jenghiz Khan
Orange Peel


Others not mentioned yet:
Aardvark
Forever More
Blonde on Blonde
Hannibal
Capability Brown
Pluto
Odin
Flaming Youth
Running Man (good example of proto that NEED NOT be Hammond-driven)
Ancient grease
Steel Mill
Deep Feeling
Home

Regards Quicksand, I think you should tolerate the idea that proto is not just the heavy power trio but also can assume the softer hippy/pastoral side of psychedelia. Think of those softer psych bands merging into -you guessed it- tamer prog.

One of the determining facets of this "proto" sound is rougher, rawer, untutored playing. Well, guess wot? You don't have to have heavy garagey playing done rather amateurishly. You can also have gentle ,flutes & acoustics/ commune-hippy psych-amaturishness. It is not the sole domain of , say, wild fuzz blasters.

Catapilla, especially on the second lp is spacey jazzrock psych coming into proggy realms. It deffo sounds almost spontaneous, with no true repeated melodies. It is the freeform spirit of true psychedlia lingering as we move into prog. It is Proto!

This is one of the qualifiers of proto:it is less experimental than the more disciplined Prog. Prog is not meandering jams, but strict composition (or , at very least, moreso leans in this direction.) This is why we consider The Nice as being proto and not prog, yet ELP is always referred to as prog, not proto. Why? Simply because The Nice was rawer (crude vocalist,neither bass nor drums showing great talent) and less-structured -except, of course, for the classical-covers bits- than ELP compositions.
Compare, say The Nice's "Hang On To A Dream" to ELP's "Just Take A Pebble": both are sandwiches - main melody/improv/return to main melody - but listen again. IS the middle of "Pebble" indeed a freeform jam???
At the outset, you may think so, but, no, this is down note-for-note (and repeated so live). "Dreams" middle however IS freeform, almost spontaneous-sounding ...psychedelic.

As psych moved towards prog, wildness was tamed; the composition became stricter; the players were more of a "crystalline thought" as to where they meant to be headed.

Try this Wallace am I getting there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zbtAxQdZcU

SPOOKY TOOTH-SPOOKY TWO PLUS OTHER ALBUMS
PRETTY THINGS -PARACHUTE + OTHER ALBUMS
WAITING FOR THE SUN-DOORS
THE COLLECTORS-GRASS AND WILD STRAWBERRIES
GATTCH-ST
COVEN-JINX

Pghil: I cannot open youtubes (on dial-up) so Wallace has no idea wot you have there.


Coven-Jinx? No idea. I know the Coven band, but not a title "Jinx".


Spooky Tooth...errr...well, maybe. They do have that unpolished sound.

As for the rest....

Little Red Ridinghood, you best stay firmy on the path Wallesch has laid beefwhore you and not stray - or the wolf might chew yer titties off.


Here are some more. Euro mainly:

BLAST FURNACE
POLYFEEN
ELMIRA
DAY OF PHOENIX
NORMAN HAINES BAND
T.P.SMOKE
DON SHINN
JOY UNLIMITED (the one lp)
FRUMPY (one or two lps only)

Agree. The title was psych/prog crossover. I note plenty of prog in that list but not much psych.

Yes. Psych/prog crossover.

That is proto prog.

And I gave you a list of generally-accepted proto prog bands.

.....

Of course the term did not exist in those days. The term "prog" did not really exist then, so how are we to deem a subset term like "proto prog" did.
Proto as a moniker was brought to being, prior to internet days, in the 80s I guess ;by mailorder dealers. In their catalogues/lists. "Proto" was used as a descriptor to tag an explicit sound; an accommodating handle - say taxonomy - to group bands to a prevalent SHARED sound.

Proto is not writ-in-stone historical lineage. It is NOT A GENRE. It is a common sound.

True, this embryonic percusor of Prog's main indentifier was that of psych morphing to prog, but, like prog itself, things were more complex and the spectrum wider. There were added factorum to the proto formula that some might find as being dissimilarities.
The Proto-sound could ALSO include:

-offshoots of Moody Blues-sound (shorter song-based ,melodic - yes structured - compositions by bands like Cressida,Fantasy,Czar,Kestrel and Gracious. Bands that had NOTHING IN COMMON with psych.

-jazzrock influence horn bands - especially if saxs played in style found on VDGG. Swegas, Web,Samurai,Heaven,Colosseum,Catapilla.

It's still rock and roll to me :wink:

Stuart asks for a GENUINE psych/prog crossover album list.

The way Wallace sees it, this is an impossible task.

Nevermind a LIST, does such a thing exist?


Just think what you are asking for here.


The first challange would be to have the requisite jump-off point: to find a lp that we would all agree is - more or less - purely "psychedelic".

We will never agree. that is for certain. Notwithstanding, Wallace does not feel YOU YOURSELF would be totally satisfied with your own choice .

Because, of course, there is no such beast. Life is not so clearly defined (except ,besides maybe the laws of physics & thermodynamics.)

There is no pure psych lp, just as "Court of Crimson King" cannot be the first all-way-through prog lp.


Now ,speaking of King Crimson, we must consider this:



For us to find the most potent example of an intermediate-stage cross-over lp, it would not really do to consider some single-lp-release band. (King Crimson - if you discount the Giles,Giles & Fripp lp - WENT STRAIGHT into what is considered prog.
Now, for sake of your quest to find a genuine crossover, would it not be more convincing had King Crimson released a garage, or pop or psych lp first and then made the quantum jump straight to prog?


What I am saying is that, for the strongest example,we must seek a band which ON THEIR SECOND/THIRD/FOURTH LP RELEASE jumped from clean psych to clear prog.


Wallace does not believe you will easily find such a creature.



And, like Wallace said, beefwhore we can start we must agree on a truely psych lp :psych from track to track.


Wots it gonna be?
Spirit "12 Dreams...." maybe.

AH.... BUT THEN THEY NEVER WENT INTO PROG.


See Stuart?
You ask the impossible.



If you pick a one-lp-release band, or a band whose first lp alone runs the gamut from psych to prog WITHIN THAT LP ALONE, then you have something there.

But Wallace cannot come up with one stand-out lp.

You have just the proto prog bands which are amorphorous "psych to rudimentary prog".


One has much better odds finding a POP to prog transistion lp. (Moody Blues or Family maybe.)

Hmmm, I'll give it a go even though it may not be right. A lot of bands changed names when they changed music styles so how about...
Skip Bifferty.....Griffin/Arc
The Action....Mighty Baby
Please.....T2
Tuesday's Children....Czar
The Tickle.....Junior's Eyes
Blossom Toes...1st to 2nd album
Man.....first two albums to later stuff.

Good try, Whopper. But....




Wallesch dunt knos Griffin, but ARC isn't prog. Don't know this "Tickle".

The band, Please issunt anywhere nears a proper example of psych.






Oh oh! Wallace never knew that Tuesday's Children were related to Czar!
(Nevertheless, Czar is protopwog, not full-blown.)



MAN first two lps are not psych.

Griffin had two ex Skip Bifferty members(including vocalist Graham Bell)plus two members from another psych band, Happy Magazine including Alan White-pre Yes.
They had an excellent psych/prog single, I Am The Noise In Your Head plus some BBC/Peel session stuff you can hear on you tube. They split up shortly after and combined with Arc to become Bell And Arc who released one album on Charisma.

The Tickle released one of the best double sided UK psych 45s in Subway/Good Evening which goes for big bucks if you can find it. They also had another couple of tracks which were unreleased at the time with all four tracks being released on a 10" for this year's record store day. Main man, Mick Wayne who played guitar on Bowie's Space Oddity then formed Junior's Eyes.

The Blossom Toes albums couldn't sound any different, in fact if you didn't know, you'd think it was two different bands.

Blonde On Blonde released a great psych single in All Day, All Night and their first album, Contrasts had the excellent psych tracks, Spinning Wheel and Ride With Captain Max. After Ralph Denyer left to form the more prog outfit Aquila, Blonde On Blonde put out two more albums with a rock/prog sound in Rebirth and reflections On A Life.

Ah Wallace,for a man who says there aint no such beast as a psych/prog album,you certainly done your best to provide a few lists on here!You keep mentioning protoprog,again another definition or description that i'm sure was not used back in the day,and like psych/prog is used in a retrospective way many years after the late 60s early 70s,just like when some music is described as freakbeat!!That's whats great about trying to describe a certain sound 50 years later after the event!!This thread wasn't started as a mega serious thing,it was meant as a bit of fun,but I fear my dear fellow you have certainly taken it to heart after listing dozens of albums,but you're obviouisly not happy with your lists as you seem to have suddenly decided a psych/prog album or sound is not a real thing!!I do disagree with your assessment,but what I hear the guy standing next to me obviously may not find it the same!!My ears and definition of a psych/prog crossover sound as many on my original list are mainly from the years 69-71,is this the era you call proto-prog?Can I ask Wallace,what is your definition of proto-prog and how does it mean more to you than my definition psych/prog crossover sound?What is the difference?I'm slightly puzzled that you say there was no beast called the psych/prog crossover sound,but you insist on saying proto-prog!!Both definitions and labels made up many years after all those albums were released!! As music addicts and for as long as I can remember,music has always been pigeonholed to try and describe a sound,but it's all subjective really as people hear different things in music,and that is the beauty of it!!Its like all the other labels surrounding the music many of us on here listen to:psych/pop,popsike,toytown pop,acid folk,wyrd folk,jazz rock,freakbeat……...many labels to try and differentiate a sound,i feel many on here can here a song and think to themselves ,that's a psych/pop song or that's an acid folk beauty.Its all down to the ear of the listener.Also at the same time I feel many on here know in general terms what constitutes a psych/pop sound or in my case a psych/prog crossover sound...I stand by the original list I put up,and in truth many only released the one album on that list!!Not 3 or 4 albums.That list was basically off the top off my head,i was reading the posts on here and thought for a bit of fun i'll start a post of what I think are albums with a psych/prog crossover sound!!You disagree theres such a beast but you had a great attempt at listing albums, but you call it proto prog.I'm just trying to understand how your definition is more of a real beast than my psych/prog definition.That's all Wallace.It's all fun and enjoyment to me,that's why I take part on here and have for many years,not as much as I used to I admit!!Could debate for hours on descriptions of music,particularly retrospective labels given to certain sounds.But hey I suppose that's all part of the fun!!!

Mr Wiki says
Proto-prog (short for proto-progressive ) is the earliest work associated with the first wave of progressive rock music, known then as "progressive pop". Such musicians were influenced by modern classical and other genres usually outside of traditional rock influences. They often employed longer and more complicated compositions, interconnected songs as medley, and studio composition. Some of the artists that were essential to the development of progressive rock, rather than just anticipating the movement, include the Beatles, the Beach Boys, the Doors, the Pretty Things, the Zombies, the Byrds, the Grateful Dead and Pink Floyd.

Nice write up Stuart I agree what we heard then in the 60's and 70's isnt heard in the same vein by others a lot younger..
our brains must lodge music some where and then decipher later on heard music and process it with the past experience
Does that make sense?

Fair do's , Stuart.

"I feel many on here know in general terms what constitutes a psych/pop sound or in my case a psych/prog crossover "
In the same way many a seasoned progger knows what is meant by the protoprog sound.


I agree with most of Phil's definition (but not that those mentioned bands:Beachboys, Beatles,Byrds had much to do to spark that proto sound.* Much of that sound came from fledgling single-lp release bands like, say, Locomotive.

What singles out proto from clear symphonic/art prog is brought up in this here quote from another forum:

"...lack of pretense, certain low-key aura, usage of vintage late 1960s instruments and recording equipment (case in point: Hammond organ and piano instead of synths), adherence to song format where even a side-long piece would feel more like a collection of songs than a piece with symphonic development, general lack of highbrow music theory backgrounds among musicians – which doesn't imply they played their instruments badly, but rather they were mostly, in my understanding, oblivious to the heady theoretical stuff and ventured into the realms of avant-garde simply because it was the order of the day, achieving great results by way of accident/serendipity rather than by way of academic training."

In many cases a FACET of Proto had this psychish-improv thing going. Psych-ish instrumental rambles/meanderings; whereas pure prog is not spontaneous, but carefully worked-out in advance.




* okay: I read Phil's quote again more carefully and noted that the definition is VERY CAUTIOUS/PRUDENT: "... were essential to the development of progressive rock, rather than just anticipating the movement" Okay then, I agree with this well-put statement with the caveat: "...were perhaps essential...."
This way it reads that bands with notoriety more-or-less stumbled into a sea-change, rather than went towards that fully-aware and with pre-plan of what they wanted to end up achieving.

Wallace said

In many cases a FACET of Proto had this psychish-improv thing going. Psych-ish instrumental rambles/meanderings; whereas pure prog is not spontaneous, but carefully worked-out in advance

Yep I get that like Yes and suchlike

Have to say the very first time I've ever heard of a genre called proto-prog... it's on this very thread :grinning:

Jimmehs have problems reading my post.


Wallace stated - on this thread - that Proto was NOT a genre:



"Proto is not writ-in-stone historical lineage. It is NOT A GENRE. It is a common sound. "

No, I did not invent the term, "proto-prog".




This is too much!



One simply DOES NOT challenge a PROGMASTERMAN.One does not parry with

one's better.





Now look here, Jimmeh.

Wallesch don't know you from Adam. Perhaps you are a future masterman of promise. I cannot say.

But WALLACE on the other hand is a BONER-FIDDER PwogMasterman of 66 yahres age!(That's one "6" away from being The Beast.)

Wallace is the Bagg of Sammy. The real deal.




Jimmeh, I had me fingers steeped in prog when - the neat probability is that - you were still wetting your bed.
So do not presume to judge me.


If a ProgMasterman gives you the benison of his hard-earned knowledge , you ACCEPT it graciously , and do not counter it.


This arrogance hath been playing around for a long time on this forum,circling me with envy, and you ,sir, are not the only one.

Peeps do not seem to realize how lucky they are to have a true Masterman amongst themselves - especially when prog/psych mastermen posting on mere forums are a distinctly dying species.


Shenanigans loike these smack to me of subversion.


You might do me the courtesy of apology.

Cum on Wallace, not judging you at all, I was just curious to know the origin of that term and the only apology I could give you is about my poor english. And by the way I stopped wetting my bed quite early, so probably exactly when you did.
So if there is an arrogant here... not me!
Have a nice summer :grimacing:

proto-prog?
LMAO!
What sort of bollox is that made up genre? A progmasterman? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

Dearie me!

Wot has our educational system come to?

Its "made-up".


Oh dearie dear.